Episode 4: Publishing in Venice
Season 1: Venice
Episode 4: Publishing in Venice with Enrico Bettinello (Wetlands Books)
Enrico Bettinello is using Wetlands Books as an opportunity to explore the contemporary issues of our time through diverse modes of storytelling. Image: Radoslaw Kazmierczak
Join us as we dive into a fascinating conversation with Enrico, the mastermind behind Wetlands Books, a publishing house in Venice that is redefining storytelling. From commissioning African writers to exploring the intersection of theatre and books, Enrico shares his unique perspective on the cultural landscape of Venice.
In this episode, we explore Enrico's vision for Wetlands Books, and the importance of addressing contemporary issues such as over-tourism and climate change through storytelling. We also delve into the Afterword project, which invites African writers to reflect on Venice, and discuss the impact of theatre on audience engagement.
I met with Enrico through a lovely introduction by Alice Ongaro Sartori - who I was in conversation with in our first episode.
Enrico and Alice created the podcast Nowtilus in 2020-21 to rethink how we see Venice, dispelling myths about the city, and placing the lagoon back at the centre of attention. Now they are working together on Wetlands to bridge the gap between local and global dialogues, with an emphasis on essays that read like fiction, blurring the lines between reality and imagination.
In this episode we cover:
how Enrico met a former-Venice resident returning home wanting to invest in the cultural life of the lagoon, and from there Wetlands Books was born
Wetlands Books focus on contemporary issues such as over-tourism and climate change
the publishing house emphasises a storytelling approach, blurring the lines between fiction and non-fiction, aiming to engage readers and address pressing issues
a project inviting African writers-in-residence to reflect on Venice, providing fresh perspectives and fostering cultural exchange
the intersection of theatre and publishing, highlighting the performative aspect of both mediums and their impact on audience engagement, and
reflections on Venice's significance as a lagoon city, its relationship with nature, and the unique perspective it offers on human-nature interaction.
BIOGRAPHY
Enrico Bettinello (b. Venice, 1971) is a music and performing arts curator, lecturer, writer and cultural manager living in Venice.
After directing the Fondamenta Nuove Theatre and the European Institute of Design in Venice, he currently teaches Elements of theatre and live art production at Ca' Foscari University in Venice, Music Production at the Master in Arts Management of the Catholic University of Milan, and History of Jazz at the Conservatory of Venice.
From 2017 to 2023 member of the Board of Europe Jazz Network, he is project manager and member of the Scientific Council of I-Jazz, the national association of Italian jazz festivals. He is a Board Member of Teatro Santa Marta at Ca' Foscari University.
He works as curator for NovaraJazz (as director of We-Start production centre, managing residencies and interdisciplinary projects), Pro-Helvetia (as creator and director of the New Echoes project), Centro Santa Chiara in Trento, Palazzo Grassi/Punta della Dogana in Venice
He collaborates with Il Giornale della Musica, RSI 2, Radio3 Rai and is the author of books ("Storie di jazz", Arcana 2015 and others), as well as a founder, member of the editorial board and board of directors of Wetlands books.
TRANSCRIPT
Welcome to Art Destinations. My name is Sarah Rhodes, an artist based in lutruwita Tasmania. I met with Enrico Bettinello, an independent curator, publisher, and scholar in theatre and African music, through a lovely introduction by Alice Ongaro Sartori - who I chatted to in our first episode.
Enrico and Alice created the podcast Nowtilus in 2020-21 to rethink how we see Venice, dispelling myths about the city, and placing the lagoon back at the centre of attention. Now they are working together on Wetlands Books, a publishing house that aims to bridge the gap between local and global dialogues, with an emphasis on essays that read like fiction, blurring the lines between reality and imagination.
Art Destinations will be published fortnightly and each season will focus on one place. The first season explores Venice and aims to provide an understanding of the layer tourists rarely see. The second season will focus on Tasmania and the third, Sicily. Please take a minute to sign up to the email newsletter on the website artdestinations.org and follow this podcast on your hosting platform so you don’t miss an episode.
Enrico comes with a deep-rooted connection to Venice, as one of the few people who has spent their childhood and career in the Venetian lagoon. Enrico explains how Wetlands Books was born from a chance encounter with an investor who wanted to contribute to Venice's cultural landscape. EB, a seasoned theatre director, and cultural curator, seized the opportunity to create an association focused on contemporary issues facing Venice.
SR: Welcome, Enrico. It's lovely to meet you.
EB: Thank you. Thank you very much for having me.
SR: So in this episode of Art Destinations, we're really interested in exploring places through the eyes of artists, curators, people involved in the arts, and understanding the place through their perspectives. And Alice Ongaro Sartori told me about your Wetlands publishing house, but also when I was in Venice, I came across the books in many bookshops, and I also went to that event in The Venice Venice Hotel. And it's very intriguing. There's lots of different aspects that are interesting about the Wetlands project, but I'd love to just hear a little bit about, you know, how the idea came about.
EB: So I have to go back to the pandemic period. And in those months a friend called me and told me that a guy showed up in his bookshop telling that he was back in Venice after many years and that he wanted to do something for the city and for the culture of the city. And so this friend gave him my number and we met. And this guy is still young, but retired manager that is originally from Venice. And he came back after many years around the world with a very top managing position in his job. And he wanted to do something and he wanted to connect with some Venetians because of course he was away since 30 years. So I organised, we were in the pandemic. I'm just stressing this fact, not because it's romantic, but because it was kind of [chuckle] challenging to organise some meetings in that period. But we organised this open air lunch with some professionals and people that I thought that would be interesting for this guy. And then we decided to do something. I was already a part of the cultural life of the city. I've worked as a theatre director for many years. And we decided to create an association. And between the many projects that we were thinking about, this project of having a publishing house was the one who really, which really popped up in a more convincing way and so we started doing something.
EB: And the idea was to write books that were dealing about contemporary issues that are present in Venice, but they are present in over... All around the globe as well. As over tourism or climate change and flooding and all these and other issues. And so we started publishing our books in 2022, and now it's almost two years. And we have now around 16 or 17 books out. And some are going to come out very soon. And so it started in a way by chance on the other hand, let's say that it was probably the time to do this.
SR: So it sounds like it was something that came from a passion and from a love rather than something that was a very sort of conscious or premeditated idea.
EB: In a way, yes, probably more than, and furthermore, it came out of an urgency probably to fill a gap that is still present both on the local debates about different aspects of Venice situation, but also in the global debate. We had the luck that some writers came here and they... And Venice is always attractive for writers, and this is something probably, of course, Venice is also one of the main focuses of the publishing house. But as well, it's something that is always very interesting and intriguing also for the writers. So when we approach some writer, he or she is always very open and often enthusiast to deal with these topics that are not very easy sometimes can be even a little bit predictable, the external gaze that someone can have about the city. But we work also with residencies for the writers. So we try to connect the human texture of our city to the books that we, and the literary and essays that that we develop with the writers.
SR: So what do you think it is about Venice that's really capturing the imagination and is so attractive for these writers to come? Is it, I mean, it's such a touristic place that it would take a while to peel back the layers and find the real Venice. That's one thing, obviously, you know, it is a microcosm for many of the issues that are playing out. And then it's also a bit of a fantasy of a place, like it's a real sort of imaginative place. So I'm not sure if I actually answered the question, but what is it do you think that is about Venice that is so attractive?
EB: I think that you mostly summarise the, some of the main points that are really attractive and the... It's always surprising because it is like an onion. The more you peel it and you try to find the real, the core of the city, you find that the city is always mirroring itself. And you would probably find the things that you wouldn't expect, or that probably goes back to... Go back to the previous layer. And it's very interesting, all these aspects of the eternal fascination, the over abuse, the image and storytelling, touristic storytelling about the city, and as well as this fact that is really a small city in comparison to the activities and to the importance that especially arts and culture keep on having here this idea that there are some dynamics. There are more proper for medium/small town than of a big city.
EB: But with this flow of people, ideas, projects that are always keeping on going, sometimes is exploited because especially with arts, with the Biennale, the economy that is behind the Biennale is a very huge economy of renting apartments of workers and all the other aspects and food and whatever services that are really exploited in the most simple and clear way. But on the other hand, you have the always this feeling that you are in the right place, and this right place is not a big city. But it's a space in which you can also reflect, and I use this word because it's a word that is also connected to the presence of the water, and the fact that you are always reflecting in a, not in metaphorical way, but in a physical way in the waters.
EB: They're not that clear, [chuckle] but... And sometimes you cannot really reflect but this idea of having this moving surface that is at the same time should be transparent, but is really not. But it is something that is always inspiring and always gives a unique perspective to those who wants to deal with this thing. Many people told me, "Oh, I would never live in a city with so much water. I feel uncanny or something that makes me anxious to have this water." And it's something that I can understand. I grew up here, and so I'm accustomed to that. But I think that the, all these elements that you said, plus these other reflections, [chuckle] in a broader way are at the basis of this fascination of the city for writers and for artists as well.
SR: The thing that's coming through as well is the, I mean, in your publishing house, you've got literary or critical engagement, and you've also got a fiction. You've got several arms of your publishing house. And then when you're describing what Venice is, how it's inspired your way of thinking and the artists that are there, you're talking about the historical aspect as well as the kind of imaginative and metaphorical aspect. So you know how are you finding your way through the intersection of fact and fiction in the publishing house and in the stories that you're commissioning?
EB: We had some very interesting conversation about the tone of voice that the publishing house should establish since the beginning. And for us the idea of publishing essays, but written in a different way, mostly essays written like they were narrative. And like what they were fiction and maybe fiction that is reflecting on real aspects is something that is, since the beginning was very clear to us. Not only because it is preventing us to receive, we still receive thousands of requests from poets, writers and whoever wants to publish. But it's very clear that we don't publish novels, or poetry, or something like that. And so this is something that is also useful for us because being so connected with the city and it means that we want to stay open to the community, but we cannot just receive and publish things that people wants to publish.
EB: And on the other hand this idea came out also of Nowtilus. That was the podcast that Alice and I were curating before wetlands has been established. This idea of a storytelling that stays in this kind of a grey area between fiction and non-fiction is something that was very fascinating for Alice and I, and that probably was also transmitted to wetlands. This idea to work a lot with potential of narrative when it deals with urgencies of our time. And at the same time, the needing for the best is, say, books to get rid of the more academic burden, especially in terms of being reader-friendly [chuckle] on one way, but also as a name to establish a new way of writing and reflecting about these things. I think that, this is very, very important for us, and it's something that you can probably try to identify in each wetlands book.
SR: You know, fiction has become a very powerful tool in terms of how people are communicating, you know, real ideas in every discipline. So it's interesting that fiction, it's a conceptual idea that explores, you know the now and it's sort of a, it's probably a more, as you say, more of accessible tool or genre to get people to engage with these ideas that traditionally have been a bit academic. So you've commissioned African writers to write fiction. Can you tell us a little bit about this project 'cause it sounds really interesting?
EB: Yeah. The project is called Afterwords and is curated by Maaza Mengiste, who is a very renowned novelist, but I wouldn't probably tell that it's novel. We are asking African and Afro-descendant, I don't know if this is the right word in English, sorry. Writers, to write and write about these topics that we are reflecting upon. So it's, we try to ask them to be wetlands in a way, and to stay, to try to stick to this idea, of course, respecting each one style and desire and expression. But, I think that is very interesting because we, usually in this project Afterwards, we host the writers here in Venice for some residency periods. And during these periods, they are not just, of course, requested to write, but also we invite them to be part of the community in a way or another, of course, on the degree that they would like to explore.
EB: So we make also dinner with them or they... We put in contact with different people from Venice and we make them discover aspects that they probably wouldn't know with just some weeks of residency. Because as it happens, it's very common that, common places are always present and clichés about, even good faith clichés. [chuckle] I call them, good faith clichés because even very clever and deep thinker and writers so sometimes they're fascinated by aspects that for the Venetians are aspects that we are not very interested in anymore in dealing with. And if you take for example, the carnival masks, the carnival masks are a tool and it's an object and it's more or less a tradition.
EB: We don't have now time to go deep into this thing, but it's not a, it's not important. Carnival masks are always very fascinating for people who come from abroad and they say, "Oh, wow, this is something that is... " And for Venetians, they are exactly the symbol of this kind of commercial aspect and very predictable, and undesirable aspect of our city with a lot of small shops selling masks. And it's a kind of cliché that the Venetians are not anymore identifying with. And so it's interesting for us that the African writers can, you know with their sensitivity, they can get some aspects that they wouldn't probably expect from their experience here. And the idea to connect these aspects with their experience of being someone who lives, who comes from an African country, from the south of the world in a way.
EB: But that is something that, for example, in the huge debate about climate change, now it's starting to change, but in the past, all the literature, all the perspectives that were mostly, Eurocentric or Euro-American centric, due to the very important literature and academic literature, but the idea to give voice also to people who comes from places in which all these issues are the same, but very different in terms of the impact on the communities is something that for us is very fascinating. And that gives us also this wetlands nuance to stay between fiction and non-fiction.
SR: If you're getting African writers to come from Africa, obviously, or not always Africa I'm guessing but generally, to Venice, are they, they're writing from an outsider's perspective, aren't they? So, how do you see that? Like what's the advantage of that?
EB: Having outsider's fiction, but also outsider gaze on some community is always very interesting. Even when it carries some clichés. It's always very interesting because sometimes it highlights aspects that you would probably underestimate. And that maybe for someone who is not living here is, really, oh, wow, is really evident. And we are not probably even aware of how evident and relevant these aspects could be. So for me, having this dialogue and establishing this relationship between an outsider perspective, and a community that is not just a picture that the outsider looks at, but it's a kind of living environment with which the writer is welcome to interact and to integrate with, and to have a dialogue is something that brings also to Venice a lot of value that very often the everyday economy of the city is trying to hide in.
EB: So I think that African writers is, because Maaza, she comes from Africa. Because our president Luca, he lived in Africa for many times. And so he is very connected to this continent. And because we think that African writers can bring a very interesting perspective in terms of being some, being subjects that are, that carry a different perspective within themself. This is something that is very clear when you deal with African music, for example. When you deal with African music, African music is the music from which Jazz and Black music and African American music came. But on the other hand the contemporary African music is fully imbued by this by African American rhythms. And so you really can't tell what was the original thing and what was not.
EB: In Congolese music, for example, you have a lot of guitars that came from Belgium colonisation that was awful. But they brought the guitar, so this was something nicer. And you have a lot of a Cuban, Afro-Cuban, rhythm that both in Senegalese or Congolese music, for example. And so this idea of being always in a transition, in a cultural community who is, for historical and cultural reason always out of place and in the good place at the same time, is for me personally, something that's very fascinating. I know that it's not very easy for those who live this condition, and also for the Afropeans, for example, that are the Africans that live in Europe for, since a couple of generation. And that they carry this multiple identity. But I think that this is something that is extremely valuable also for our very old continent to receive and to confront with this kind of thoughts that are very interesting. And that can probably bring a lot of useful perspective also for the issues that there are present in our continent.
SR: By the sounds of it, you came up with this idea before Lesley Lokko's provocation for the Biennale of Africa being the laboratory of the future. Is that right? Or did it happen sort of in the zeitgeist?
EB: It is in the zeitgeist. I am an African American scholar, a music scholar. And so this thing is something that, for example, for the scholar who are dealing with these topics is something that is, I wouldn't say clear, but it's something we are reflecting since years. I think that Lesley Lokko's provocation is something that was already there, and that was something that should, what that needed to be advocated and evoked. But I think that is something that instead you want to be very conservative and narrow-minded is something we should happily confront every day now.
SR: And I know I'm a photographic artist. I know in terms of contemporary photography the world is looking at Africa. And African artists are very strong and they've got a really powerful place in major institutions having exhibitions. And yeah, it's a good, it's a... It's their time.
EB: Is their time? I don't want this thing to become just a trend or a fashion thing, because sometimes it can be that in the art world, someone is kind of surfing on the right wave. And that's why I think that more than just giving them voice, that is of course the minimum that we can do. It's very interesting to establish connection and kind of neutral areas of meeting, neutral communities in which they can confront also with our issues of old White colonisers. And we cannot necessarily live with our guilty forever. And we are very open to try to find good ways to live together and to incorporate other community's perspective in our vision, and try to build something that can be meaningful. And maybe also more aware that in the past. Especially in the realm of culture and arts, that it's a kind of Darwin, looked like it was a kind of Darwin like creature that should have grow and evolve constantly but... And it evolves constantly, but it's not necessarily the direction is just one. There are different directions, and it's very interesting how we can reflect about the major issues of our time with the cooperation and the output of this African writers.
EB: Especially because in the 20th century literature, mostly Western writers reflected more on the inner side of the human being. That was amazing with some great result. But the reflection to other aspects have been left mostly to literature like science fiction or other literatures that were kind of on the outskirts [chuckle] of the literature and now the idea to bring these aspects back to the core of what the writers are thinking every day is something that is more than welcome.
SR: You lecture at the University in Venice. And you're lecturing in theatre. So what is your interest in theatre? What's your focus?
EB: My course is about theatre and live art production. So they asked me to take these lectures, due to my activity as a curator in performing arts in general. So it's not necessarily theatre in terms of dramatic theatre, but mostly all performing arts, contemporary theatre, dance, music, performance. And I think that these aspects and all the things connected to the performative is also very interesting in order to try to better understand how we behave.
EB: Even if we don't perform, some sociologists could say that we always perform in a way or another. But I think that this idea of the performative to have the agency to bring some of these issues. And also not just the issues as a topic but also the emotions that are connected, the fear, the hope, the ideologies, the pride, and all these feelings that are connected to the identity, for example. And the frailty of the identity is something that the performing arts are always very good, and very useful to, in carrying this.
EB: And in the university I teach production because as a curator I want to give to my students the perspective of what is needed to produce something, a festival, a series of concerts, a dance project, a multimedia show or something that is a site-specific performance in a museum space or in a gallery. So my course is on one hand also has these very practical aspects that are interesting, I hope, [chuckle] but I think so, for the students to know in order to ground all the concepts also in some real practice.
SR: You might not be able to answer this because it's essentially who you are. As a photographer, I see the world through that perspective of that. So what, especially coming into publishing, how does the world of theatre, what does that frame look like when you become a publisher? And is that maybe the fictional aspect of it? I mean it would bring a really lovely view, but I'm just not sure what that is.
EB: As a curator in performing arts my main focus is not necessarily on the artist, but is mostly on the audience, and especially on what happens between the performer and the audience. I'm interested in this kind of flexible area between the, what is performed and what is perceived. This is my main interest. Also as a curator, I work a lot on how the people position themselves when they attend a performance, and that's why I'm doing a lot of things with museums, sometimes also in order to break some habits that have become very predictable in terms of the performative.
EB: What is really interesting is what you do as a reader, as a spectator or whatever with the things, the arts, or the meanings that comes to you. This is for me the most interesting aspect. Not to dismiss the incredible value, of course, of the artist I'm working with or of the writers I'm working with, but what is very special and that makes the difference is to activate a different perspective as a spectator or as a reader. You can read the best book ever and don't get anything, because if you don't activate something it's kind of useless. It's the same for performing arts, especially for contemporary performing arts that they don't have, they don't carry the heritage, or they don't have this quality of, okay this is another Shakespeare thing, or this is another Traviata, or another show based on something that we already know. Very often, contemporary choreography, or performance, or music, they deal with something that is unknown. And so, it's interesting that the artist and the spectator share the same uncertainty, and the same needing to have a kind of connection, emotional and artistic and expressive in order to make this experience relevant.
EB: I think that this is something that for me is something that you can also transfer to the books. Because it's, what is interesting is what happens between the text and the reader. And what happens between the writer and the text. And what is the text? For me, the text is something that is more articulated and complicated that, the words themselves, and it's something that is kind of hypertext and that includes also the, all the possible aspects, even undesired [chuckle] that comes from this experience. I think that the performance taught me to look the things this way.
SR: So is... In terms of the performance, would you say that it's the atmosphere, the intangible that the performance is presenting, or the relationship that it's creating with the audience? It's sort of the feeling. Is that what you're meaning?
EB: No. Not only the feeling, of course, the overall experience is very important, but it's important. All the things that comes out of that thing. You are a photographer, so you probably, you know Roland Barthes, and all these things that what is happening outside of the frame of the picture. And I'm interested in that thing also, in performance and in literature. I'm interested not only in how people behave and what is the atmosphere of a performance, that is something that's very important. But I'm also interested in what moves people, even in a deeper and personal and of course a very unique way, because each people has a different experience out of a performance or a concert or a reading, or reading a page can be moved or can be not moved by that thing. I think that when we focus on these aspects, also the other aspects starts shining in a brighter way.
SR: Okay. So...
EB: I'm not sure, I don't want to convince you about that, but... [chuckle]
SR: No, no. I'm really interested, but I probably don't understand enough. I can understand in theatre, in books or in... How can you have any control over that as a publisher?
EB: Control of what?
SR: The feeling that between the reader and the writer.
EB: Of course, you cannot have this control, this full control. You can, of course, desire that this thing is going to happen. And you can try to put a lot of efforts in terms of making some events, in which the writer or the publisher meets the readers. This is something that is very important for us. Last week we went to this fair, this book fair, in Florence, and a lot of readers came to our booth and they say, "Oh, wow, this is lovely. I love this book." And this is something that is not just flattering in terms that, "Oh, wow, they love the book." And is something that makes your efforts worth in terms of, yeah, this book and the fact that we asked someone or that someone asked us to publish something, and this thing came out. And some reader was moved by this, these pages is something that for me, it's very important.
EB: Of course, our book are also very political in a broader sense. Everything, you, and my curation is also political. Even if it's not declared as political. I don't state necessarily the political nature of what I do. But as a director of a theatre in the between 2008 and 2016, as well as a freelance curator or as a publisher, and as a lecturer as well, I also consider my activity as a very political. Because I am dealing with things that hopefully move the people to a better awareness in activities that empower the community and gives the community some tools, some emotional tools, some hope, some relationships in order to establish a better community.
SR: Okay. That's interesting. So it's almost, there's many different approaches. It's the curation of the writers and... Also even the paper stock that you're printing on. You are printing on a particular paper made from, yeah, seaweed from the lagoon.
EB: Yeah. Yeah. It's a paper that is made of recycled seaweeds. And it has this very interesting quality that, you... It's a, we call it... Sometimes we joke about that thing, but we call our covers and the paper of our covers a sexy paper. Because you can touch it, and it's very sexy object. It is not, sometimes it is the books, even books with good covers, they're not very sexy when you touch them. And this paper has this quality that is very organic. And you can also feel that it's very good also to touch the books.
SR: So did, was that paper already being made, or did you commission that paper?
EB: No, it's a, there is a company that makes this paper out of seaweeds.
SR: Yeah, it's very clever, 'cause you're actually there when you're holding it, aren't you? That's, it's really... It's a very clever idea. I can see how your idea of the bringing the reader into a relationship with the book.
EB: Yeah.
SR: I hadn't actually considered that, sort of a public program of events as well, but that's, it's sort of creating a community really, and bringing them into it, whether they're from a distance or physical.
EB: Yeah. This is something that is really connected to the wetlands project.
SR: How does Venice give you a sense of belonging? Because, and I asked that from the frame of being interested in islands generally, you're quite connected to nature because of the water. I'm just interested, it doesn't need to be a place so much as sort of a sense like what... You obviously have a really strong sense of belonging to Venice based on your whole career being focused on that. How do you get your sense of self from Venice?
EB: I have the feeling that, and this is something that with Alice, we developed very well also in our podcast in Nowtilus. This idea of the lagoon system is something that gives a very good representation of what we want to say. I grew up at the Lido which is an island, and my parents still live there, that separates the Venice Lagoon from the sea. And so it is an island in an island in a way, because Venice, of course, is connected by a long bridge through the mainland. But it is a series of islands connected by bridges. And it is an island in itself with other islands in the lagoon. And this lagoon is probably the environment we should look at in order to better understand how we live, and how we can live.
EB: Because the lagoon is a perfect example of how the humans and the nature they can live together. If the humans didn't make some big works in order to put the rivers out of the lagoon in the past, now the lagoon... And Venice would be in the mainland now, with the... And the lagoon would be probably completely dry, because of all the things that the rivers carry with them. So this idea of staying and the keeping on going with the lagoon is something that was and still is a human desire. And but the lagoon itself it's nature, and so it changes and it evolves continuously.
EB: And every time you can probably try to shape some aspects, but some other shapes are completely out of your control. And this balance between what the nature does to your environment, and what you do to your environment, this that for many people has been a struggle, especially when we want to do something, or to preserve something is a struggle, but is now a dialogue. And you can learn a lot from all the different aspects that a lagoon, a wetland in general, can offer to your reflection.
EB: I think that this is something... This, for example, is something that I never thought about when I was young. I was living in the lagoon. I was taking a boat every day to go to school. So I was crossing a lagoon with the canals. So sometimes the tide was very low. Sometimes there were terrible flooding. And so this idea of living in such a complicated environment was something that was always present in my life. But when I started reflecting about how powerful is this ambient, as a metaphor, but not just as a metaphor, but as a real thing that is there and you have to deal with every day is something that for me was very powerful.
EB: And I think that also for people who comes from other geographies that sometimes deal with very difficult conditions is always very interesting to try to bring their perspective. And I think that this is something that the idea of an island, so to be surrounded by something that is continuously moving is fascinating. And I'm completely agree with you about this idea of the importance of the island as a metaphor, and as a tool to try to investigate our contemporaneity. And so I felt always connected.
EB: Moreover, I had the privilege to work in a field that is still presenting Venice, because a lot of jobs are not, you have to move if you do another job, maybe because in Venice most of the jobs are connected to the tourism, or to the culture. I work in culture. I had had the privilege to have this, to keeping this connection to my hometown. And so probably I'm not the best one to answer to your question, because I... It's like asking to a fish about the water. It is something that I was immersed in since I was born. And so I probably don't have a good answer to your question.
SR: There wouldn't be many people in your position that have lived in Venice all their life, and are able to work on in such a really sort of deep thinking capacity, at really kind of a political and deeply cultural capacity. There wouldn't be many people who would be able to stay, as you say. So it's very lucky.
EB: It's a lucky, lucky combination. Let's put that way.
SR: Yeah, I mean, that's right. Just the, your attributes that you were born with enabled you to be able to make the most of that. So anyway, Venice is lucky.
EB: Yeah. Thank you. [chuckle]
SR: I think that that's, I think that's a beautiful end to the interview. I really appreciate your time.
EB: Okay. Thank you very much. Let's stay in touch. I'll see you soon, Sarah. Have a lovely evening [chuckle] in your case.
Thank you for listening to the first episode of Art Destinations. We will return in two weeks with an interview with London-based textile and video artist Carolina Mazzolari, who grew up in Milan, a short train ride from Venice. In this episode we honour the women of around the world, but in Venice in particular, who ran public laundries, washing clothes in Venice’s rivulets. Mazzolari created a video with Royal Ballet choreographer Kristin McNally dancing in Portofino. The video was projected in the streets of Venice with Mazzolari’s tapestry work to remind us about the connection between those involved in invisible domestic work. In the meantime, please subscribe to Art Destinations wherever you find your podcasts and sign up to our newsletter on our website artdestinations.org. I am your host Sarah Rhodes. Ciao for now.
