Episode 7: What does it mean to be Italian?
Season 1: Venice
Episode 7: Photographer Davide Degano questions what it means to be Italian
Photographic artist Davide Degano started to question what it means to be Italian while studying photography at The Hague. Davide started a project focusing on the people living in Friuli, where he grew up in northern Italy, near the border of Slovenia.
In the project Sclavanie, Davide started to investigate how people living in this border town see themselves and how they are perceived. The word sclavanie is a derogatory term for Italian people with Slovenian descent. His work expanded into the project Romanzo Meticcio which means ‘mixed novel’ to look at what it means to be Italian against the backdrop of Italy’s fascist history.
As someone who was born in Sicily, with Columbian and Slovenian grandparents, identity has always been multi-dimensional. His grandmother Olga was born in Slovenia. By the time she was 20, the same land had become Italy. One hundred and fifty years ago, Sicily was part of the Spanish Empire, and not long before that it was part of the Ottoman Empire. Through his work, Davide started to reflect on his ancestry what that means in a post-colonial world.
In this episode we cover:
Davide’s slow, deliberate approach to portraiture using large format photography to emphasise a respectful relationship with his subjects,Photography as inherently fictional. An incomplete medium that can only seek to provoke questions rather than provide definitive answers.
Davide incorporates archival material and collaborates across disciplines to integrates diverse perspectives and context,
He explores marginalised identities in Italy through his projects “Sclavanie” and "Romanzo Meticcio" to highlight universal struggles of identity and belonging, and
He consider themes like folklore, identity, and stereotypes to reveal Italy’s cultural and social dynamics against a historical backdrop of fascism.
BIOGRAPHY
I graduated from the Royal Academy of Art (KABK) in The Hague with a BA in Visual Arts, specialising in photography. I received an honourable mention at the Paul Schuitema Award.
Since my academic years, my work has been included in several group and solo exhibitions nationally and internationally. It has been featured on platforms such as PhotoVogue, Urbanautica, British Journal of Photography, ItsNiceThat, Icon Magazine, Der Greif, and Camera Austria.
My visual research focuses on storytelling and long-term projects. I use the photographic medium as a tool with which to explore and reflect on contemporary issues related to my own experiences.
I was born in 1990 in Sicily and grew up in Friuli, Italy. The Mediterranean and Alpine landscapes of my upbringing influence my artistic practice. Since my childhood, I have had a passion for storytelling. My grandparents introduced me to this art form, often narrating mythological stories from their diverse backgrounds. My paternal grandparents are Slovenian, while my maternal grandparents are from Colombia and Sicily.
Pagan and Christian mythology frequently merge in their narratives, conveying messages of hope, faith, and resilience that have consistently resonated with me. As I matured, I began to examine the underlying meanings of these stories and relate them to my personal development.
I began to question what it means to be Italian. Am I Sicilian, Colombian, Friulian, or Slovenian?
I then considered the concept of nationality. Does it imply a fixed point in place and time? My grandmother Olga was born in Slovenia. By the time she was 20, the same land had become Italy.
The same applies to my birthplace Sicily. Is it Italy? One hundred and fifty years ago, Sicily was part of the Spanish Empire, and not long before that it was part of the Ottoman Empire. The narrative potential and the ability to give a physical and tangible form to memories, feelings, and observations offered by photography proved invaluable in this introspective quest. The non-linear narrative also proved an asset, allowing the exploration of topics in their complexity.
When I first began making photographs with any seriousness, I found the medium’s main attraction to be its unavoidable social referentiality, its capability of describing a world of social institutions, gestures, and relationships, and the possibility to turn a personal starting point into a work that can serve a broader purpose.
My practice is focused on social documentary, exploring themes related to history (time and space), cultural identity, and collective memory. These themes aim to raise questions that suggest a critical attitude toward the legacy of the past and a careful analysis of the effects on contemporary society.
My visual and theoretical research reflects on how fascism and imperialistic attitudes are rooted in Italian history since its unity. In Romanzo Meticcio, I developed this research by studying the concept of margins and marginality and how Italian society struggles to accept its multicultural side. I combine my photographs with historical and archival material to analyse how the modern nation was established by identifying some places and people as marginal, compared to others that occupy a central position. Sclavanie explores the linguistic and cultural minorities in Friuli Venezia Giulia and the role they play within contemporary society.
TRANSCRIPT
Project 4
SR: Welcome to Art Destinations. My name is Sarah Rhodes, an artist based in Lutruwita | Tasmania. In this episode of Art Destinations, I am in conversation with photographic artist Davide Degano about what it means to be Italian. While studying photography at The Hague, David started a project focusing on the people living in Friuli, where he grew up in northern Italy, near the border of Slovenia. As someone who was born in Sicily with Colombian and Slovenian grandparents, identity has always been multidimensional. In the project Scalvanie, Davide started to investigate how people living in this border town see themselves and how they are perceived. The word Scalvanie is a derogatory term for Italian people with Slovenian descent. His work expanded into the project Romanzo Metticio, which means mixed novel to look at what it means to be Italian. Against the backdrop of Italy's fascist history.
Art Destinations will be published fortnightly and each season will focus on one place. The first season explores Venice and aims to provide an understanding of the layer tourists rarely see. This is our second last episode for the season, with the second season focusing on Tasmania and the third Sicily. Please take a minute to sign up to the email newsletter on the website artdestinations.org and follow this podcast on your hosting platform so you don't miss an episode.
In this episode, Davide and I catch up after first meeting in Venice. When I was there last year, I became aware of Davide's work when I saw it as part of the Fotografia Europea Festival in Reggio Emilia. Pop over to our Instagram page at @artdestinations.podcast to see some of Davide's work from the series Scalvanie and Romanzo Metticio.
Welcome Davide to Art Destinations. It's great to have you on the podcast.
DD: Hello. Thanks, Sarah, for having me here.
SR: So I just want to acknowledge that this episode is a little step away from the investigation of artists living and or working in Venice. We met in Venice while I was setting up for the Architecture Biennale early last year, and you took a train to meet me from Friuli, the town where you grew up and are currently living. So we can imagine Venice as a place to share ideas, which is that Venice has a history of trade and of sharing ideas. So, I think the link for me is, is this idea of sort of this generative place. And when we chatted earlier, you saw many parallels between Friuli and Venice as a place on the margins, where historically there have been multiple layers of culture and history. This is not the time to unpack those ideas, but I did want to say that the tension between the centre and the periphery, together with the notion of fluid boundaries that's emerged in this Art Destinations Venice season, expresses themselves differently in other locations, but nevertheless, they exist. So through this conversation, we can unpack some of those ideas.
The first thing I wanted to discuss is some of the ideas that you're working through in your photographic practice. Now, when I asked you what your photographic practice was about, you essentially encapsulated the idea as what does it mean to be Italian? And I was just wondering what this question means to you.
DD: This question, I think, is quite important in contemporary and contemporary days and especially in Italian contemporary society. And for me, it means just to dig in the past to try to contextualise the present. So, most of the time, both in history, the one that we are taught in, in school and the one that that is passed on by our family. There are some gaps and these gaps, somehow they are really important to define our own identity. And so, and so asking myself this question helps me to guide my artistic research.
SR: Okay. So in terms of your own family history, what are you bringing to that question?
DD: Well, my family is a bit all over the place. That's the reason why I wonder myself, what does it mean to be Italian? Because I was born in Sicily and I grew up in Friuli. Both places at the margin, with a different yet similar story. My grandmother on my mother's side, she's originally from Colombia. Instead, my grandmother on my father's side, she's from Slovenia. Or better, this place in the border between Slovenia that once was free and once was Slovenia. By the time she reached 25 became Italy. So, so since I was a kid, I was accustomed to this multicultural environment and hence the question, what does it mean to be Italian?
SR: So were you aware when you were a child living in Friuli, that you were, you know, of mixed ethnicity or was that something that was sort of never crossed your mind?
DD: Well, never really in terms of family awareness, clearly, if I see my, my grandmother, my two grandmothers, they look quite different in terms of skin colour and, and physiognomy. Yet I never really kind of paid much attention to it. But, growing up, there was some sort of, I guess, indirect episodes that that made me think. Once I grew up, when I used to go back to Sicily, they would not kind of recognise me as a Sicilian because I grew up in the north. So my accent is from the north. And at the same time, when I was growing up in the north, there were always the use of an offensive word to stress my Sicilian roots, because my physical aspect is quite different from the people from from Friuli. There was this kind of awareness, but when I was, when I was growing up, it was not really direct. It was more like kind of, I'm feeling something, but yet it's I'm not gonna I'm not able to grasp it yet.
SR: That's quite good isn't it.
DD: No, it's interesting. I mean, I never really had any trauma related to that, to be honest. It was just it was just some sort of curiosity for certain jokes or certain words that that they were thrown at me, that I couldn't really give a real meaning because I wasn't using them toward the others. And, and so it was just kind of interesting to see that.
SR: So you decided that your photographic exploration would be around cultural identity. What brought you to that decision?
DD: Well, for instance, the same people that that were kind of calling me the Rona, which is a negative word to, to kind of, stress the fact that someone is from the South, they are multicultural by themselves, meaning that most of the people in Friuli, they have a Slavic surname originally that has been Italianised after the fascists. The same happened to my grandmother. She had to decide whether to be Slovenian or Italian. After Mussolini said the racial slur. And so for me, it was quite kind of interesting that when you don't think about your past, you, you're so sure that you belong to a certain category that you use this term which is pure and purity and, and it's just enough to dig a bit further in your family ties to just find out that perhaps you have multicultural links within your family. Then most of the time it's not only a matter of skin colour. And it brings a different set of values and cultural heritage. But you need some time to dig further in it because of course there is also the trauma coming from your ancestors, your, for instance, your grandfather and grandmother. They had to face fascism. So they had to hide an identity. And then most likely most of the time, at least for my experience of the people I've met throughout my journey. They had to, they kept on, on hiding it. So. So that was kind of fascinating me a lot in terms of my research.
SR: Okay. So you started working on a project called Scalvanie. Is that how I pronounce it? You went to university in The Hague. Can you talk a little bit about how that project evolved and what that project was?
DD: Well, as you know, after four years in Australia, I moved back to Europe because it was a bit too pricey to attend an academy of art in, in Australia, in Melbourne being from overseas. And so in Holland, I started the Academy. It was my first sort of academic approach to the medium of photography. So eventually they dissembled me as a maker because my, let's say, my background is from commercial photography mainly. And then and then I started to, to study the, the, the visual storytelling subjects. So how to tell a story through images and in Holland, I couldn't really do it or I wasn't able to do it because I could speak English, but I couldn't speak that so. And people when, when you could, when you can relate to them in their own language, as good, as good as they can speak another language is very different. So I started to travel back home in Friuli. And see the place where I grew up with the with the eyes of a foreigner, but with the skills of a local. So I was able to move within the dynamics of the region as a local, because I guess I am yet being away for so much time. I started to see everything as a foreigner. And so I started to see a lot of cultural element in what was my daily life. The before were unseen to me. And so the project started a bit in this way a sort of reconnection to, to part of my cultural heritage.
SR: Okay. What do you think that you saw or how did you see that place differently from coming in as an outsider?
DD: Well, for instance, the traditions. So I started to relate tradition to certain cultural elements. So a lot of traditions are a mix between, for instance, pagan rituals and Christian rituals. So I started to dig and study the origins of both. beliefs and how they somehow, got together. I started to, I found out there was the key moment of for the project that my, my grandmother was originally from Slovenia, so her surname was originally, Slovenian. And I found it out what my (grand)mother was already passed away and through a stranger. So I was photographing in this. In this village by the border. And this. And this old man. We started to chat and talk, and somehow he knew my father. And he gave a pretty clear and precise description of my father. Then he asked me suddenly, like, why don't you speak Slovenian? And he asked me that question in Slovenian. And I said, well, mainly basically because I'm not Slovenian. That's the reason why. And so he, he showed me my grandmother house. And that was a pivotal moment for me because at the beginning I was thinking that he was he made a mistake. He was unfortunately quite old. So I guess, like, the memory played a bad game to him. But then I went back home and asked my father, and he confirmed me that. So? So suddenly everything switched for me, and I started to see also in my in my family pictures, in the archival pictures of my family cultural elements. For instance, my father's family was really matriarchal, which is typical of, of, of Slavic population. And also my grandmother used to dress in a specific way that, that when I was a kid or when she was alive, I wasn't giving really much of a thought like, yeah, uh, you know, you see her every day, but you don't really relate the fact that she was always wearing a bandanna. Covering her hair is something really specific of Slovenian women or these long dresses, and what she was eating and how she was eating the place. The place she had when the family was all donated in, in, during lunch or dinner time. The relation that she had with my grandfather, the type of relation she had. And suddenly I started to to put together several dots and do comparison between, for instance, my mum's side of the family and my father's side of the family. And I started to see cultural elements a bit everywhere, where before I was just thinking was just boring, thing that was happening in my life.
SR: That's interesting. Growing up in a patriarchal society and having your mother coming from a matriarchal society.
DD: Yeah and having them so close in my house. So like because really my, my grandfather on my mom's side, he is Sicilian. And as much as I, as I, as I love him, he, he was not really a great an example of a man in terms of respecting women in general. It was it could be my grandmother, but also my mom. He was not and still a taboo in my family. When I talk to my mom about it, she tells me story. She she I can see her her gaze a bit, you know, between said and and sort of don't want to acknowledge that because she really loves him. But it is what it is. And he's really patriarchal. On the other side is my grandmother used to run the family literally. So she was a decision maker, and my grandfather was just the person that was providing the financial means for her to decide the direction for the family. So it was it was quite, quite interesting. And also the relationship of respect, they had one to another. So with my grandfather, the Sicilian side, there was not much of respect to where my grandmother figure, whereas my grandfather on, on, on my dad's side, he was really respecting and, and listening to my grandmother and, and so that was really a starting point for me for our research. That is still we still, uh, I'm still doing because is is a lot of documents that have been that I found over the time, of course, are in Slovenian and and Slovenian is a language that don't speak. So most of the time I have to get the documents translated or, or doing it in a bit kind of rough way through Google and all this kind of. And of course then the, the understanding of the document is my understanding gets a bit slower because I need to reread it, interpret it, but it's quite fascinating process, I think. Yeah, I'm really intrigued by that, that I found that really exciting to think about that.
SR: So you've come from The Hague, you're visiting freely, you're exploring, you know, your neighbors, your family, your friends. What was your photographic approach?
DD: My approach was, was it was really slow. So, uh, through several attempts in, in, in the academy, I found out that each photographic language as a, as a, as a meaning. So, so it's just like when you play guitar, you or an instrument, you need to know what you're trying to say. And, and a specific chord can deliver a specific message. So I was introduced to the academy to analog photography and, and more in particular to large format photography. And so I thought that was the place I had to I had to take to explore this, this border area where a slow pace and, and really an attitude of listening to people is, is quite crucial because eventually the people here are really open when they get to know you and trust you. But before you reach that, that stage, you need to show them respect and more specifically, show them interest, which is the thing that I, I try to extend to my practice when I, I take a lot of portraits and, and I tend to work with people a lot. And so I think that you can show a list interest to the person in front of you, and being generally interested to what they have to tell you.
SR: So are you making straight portraits and are you making landscapes? I mean, what's your actual approach and what are you what are you trying to convey?
DD: I try to I try to use a multidisciplinary approach. So together with my pictures that usually are a mix between portraiture, landscape and details. I mix them with archival material, archival material that can be both historical. So actual documents that I found in archives and so on, but also pictures of the people that I photograph. Most of the time they at least for Slovenia, but also from my teacher, they just invited me at home and, and open up the, the their family history. So I was, I was having access to, to, to their family pictures too. And and then I tend to collaborate also with, with with, with professional from, from different fields. And so that usually is my approach. If I have to talk about just my photography. Yeah. Is is mainly a mixture between portrait or landscape and details and I tend to do it over a long time period. So it's not touch and go sort of approach. But most of the time I would just go to, to visit, to explore, visit the place sometimes also without the camera. So it was just like to show my face and show and present myself. And then one step at a time I would start to photograph perhaps the landscape, the architecture. And step by step, little by little, I would start to approach the people and create a relationship that will eventually turn into into a portrait.
SR: I have a question. When you go to a place and you experience it for the first time, you can take quite a different picture to what you take. If you've been with that person for a long time, sometimes the first picture can be the best because there's that freshness and then sometimes not that it's the last because you know, what is the last. But, uh, how do you how do you how do you balance that? Because, you know, sometimes when you meet someone, you might want to meet them a few times first, but then does that mean that you can miss that first time or do you take that first time?
DD: Well, I it's a really interesting question that I struggle to answer myself. I mean is a bit kind of surfing a wave and, and then you, you, you, you know, a bit the technique, but you kind of figure it out, like, on the spot. So, of course, if there is a possibility to take the picture during the first encounter, I'll do it and I always do it. And indeed, most of the time, these are not the best pictures in some, in some sort of way that the ones that the least. When I see them back and I print them and I see them and, and I try to kind of read them from a detached point of view then than me being the author of that picture are the one that speaks to me the most. But at the same time, I think one of the my best picture was the last picture I took, for instance, in Slovenia was the. The cover of the book is is the last picture I took of that man. And unfortunately, it's also the last picture someone took of him because it passed away a few a few months ago. And that picture came after five years of dialogues, So is, is really it's really kind of difficult to. To predict that I can be sure in terms of my attitude is that if I feel some sort of tension meaning, I mean, tension is always positive. So I always try to have that. But tension meaning in this, in this case, like not willingness to be photographed, I rather I'd rather not do it because I know that it's going to be unless the rear case is, not a great picture. And so I perhaps do it the next time and the following one, because when you don't want to be photographed is eventually, uh, when you, when you manage to take the picture is, is always you've been convincing someone. So there is always a sort of tension lying in there is never like 200% comfortable. There is always this tension. So. So that is how I try to handle that. There's a connection between you and the subject.
SR: So when we spoke earlier as well, you were talking about playing around with the fact and fiction. When you're making your portraits or when you're telling your stories and that you're not, you don't feel that you're working in a strictly documentary sense. Can you unpack that a little bit?
DD: Yeah. I found a really interesting. I don't remember who said that. I think Gregory Halpern was, was explaining this, this, this idea that at the end of the day, fiction and reality are kind of overlapping as concepts because eventually my reality is, is my the fiction I make out of it. So we, we all have different realities. So there is no something that can be defined as truth if you see it under that point of view. And so and so also my understanding and what I see in terms of the photographic medium, I really struggle to see it as something that can tell the truth. Of course it goes. It depends on the context of where the medium is being used. So like if you use it for scientific activation of something that can be like the exact what you see is what you get. But in terms of using the photography medium to to tell a story is fictional already. By default. You don't need to be in a studio or create a scene from from scratch, but you can rearrange something in real life. And so even though if even though the the the graphic image refers to something that it might be real to you in terms of human experience that you've been experiencing is not real in terms of truth. So it's always something that that that comes is always something fictional and is free to be interpreted. For me, it was a key element when I started to, to approach visual storytelling and photo books, especially because at the beginning I was really. Thinking this, this kind of idea that photography can change the world or tell the truth through photography. But instead I think that the real power of photography is, is actually the fact that that that is so incomplete as a, as a, as a medium. And you can just give suggestions to the viewer. And that's the best way to tell a story, because you, you give room to questions more than, than, than provide answers. So that for me is the most fascinating thing of the medium.
SR: Oh, I really like that. The idea that photography is incomplete, that or make something that's incomplete, that's very good.
DD: Yeah. Because because you can you can like in a movie, a love scene eventually develops in terms of a love scene, you can be explicit or perhaps a bit less subtle, but that you actually see it in photography. You can give the hint of being a love scene, but perhaps if the following the the if the picture that follows that that that kind of picture might give another hint that love scene can become, I don't know, a fight, a murder like there is, is not really set. It's not really clear, and hence it's not really binary in terms of. True or true or false, and I think it's quite fascinating. So does that mean that you're changing how you read photographs or it or that thinking about that changes how you make photographs? I guess both. Like when you read photographs, of course, is each of us reads them in a, in a different way, according to, I believe, to to a set of, of experiences. You've been kind of gathering throughout your life culturally, academically, in terms of actual life experience. So that that is, I think is a huge filter that each of us apply when it comes to to read a picture, but also as a maker you have, but also the picture itself changes, changes the meaning according to the historical period in which is used and the context in which the picture is used. So, as a maker, for me it's very important. And when I when I take the picture and I use my picture, I need to really match to contextualise it within what I want to try to say. And because the same picture for me is used to tell one story. Someone can download it, screenshotted, put a different caption, and suddenly becomes the opposite. As I said before, is the beauty of the photographic medium, but also something to be really aware of because it can be. I mean, there's been examples in history where, uh, dictatorship were actually stabilised thanks to the use of good design and good images and, and proper use of good design and good images to, to direct the, the, the creation of, of a certain type of culture and, and way of seeing the world. So I think that as image makers and people that work with visuals in general, we have to be really aware of. So would you say that with the idea that photography makes something that's incomplete, you would be more focused on the fragments or the incomplete nature of it, or that doesn't really come into play. It's more it's more that that is just the natural outcome. What to me is the natural outcome, but I will focus on that. I would just trust that that element of photography, because as we were talking, we were talking earlier, or perhaps in Venice too. I went through my research. I try to to raise more questions than give answers, and to me is that it's the best way to try to start to understand a specific topic or specific issues. So, so for me is that is really the key point, like the incompleteness that somehow becomes complete when it gives you a new way of seeing to a specific issue, but is still incomplete because it's you can counter-attack what you've just found out with a, with another set of set of questions.
SR: So to me that is, that is really interesting. Just bringing it back to when you're collaborating with the urban planner or the anthropologists in the Scalvanie Project, that's kind of a fragmented approach as well, in a way, because you're inviting people to collaborate and bring input in. Both of those disciplines are kind of social sciences or, they're quite sort of concrete disciplines compared with the visual arts. Or how was the final outcome? How was their contribution? How did you manage their contribution?
DD: Well, yeah, it was interesting because it is. There you go. Another contradiction. So you come someone that a professional that is basing his own research and practice uncertainties on scientific facts. You call him or her to collaborate with you on something that you find, not kind of on something that you base, not on, on scientific facts, but but rather the opposite. And, well, it was really interesting because I asked them to, to try to get this approach and to try to to experience that. And funnily enough, they, they, they have the same sort of experience in front of a picture. So they might just look at them with more cultural background in terms of their practice. But at the same time there was some uncertainties. And that's the reason why the research is still going on. Usually the type of professional researchers, they, they, they carry on a research on one topic throughout their career. So in some ways, what we call scientific facts are not always enough to explain a story, because then usually the story involves also human beings and human relationships that are difficult to kind of to kind of channel within a scientific formula. And so for me, it was really interesting, this exchange of opinion and. Our meetings gave birth to. To really nice conversation that somehow were helping me to see the world I was photographing in a different in a different way. Meaning see elements that there would be a notice to me, but elements that I wouldn't grasp. And because of that, I wouldn't be able to grasp. So then I was able to to get them visually yet not understanding them. And so that was creating a sort of tension within, within the narration. And, and their contribution was also really important because it gave a bit of context to the whole history. That was a bit important as a starting point because we talk about identity, some border that was frontier, that became border people that had to choose whether to stay on, on whether whether to be Italian or Slovenian, whether to families that were split because of that decision. So there is a sort of traumatic element, the need that needs to be contextualised, I think. And from there we can start a sort of dialogue that more than what happened in the past, a dialogue that kind of brings questions to the present to kind of progress in the future. But a bit of context, historical contextualisation, I think it was it was important not to be too banal in what I was saying. Yeah.
SR: What's the second project that you worked on, Romanzo Meticcio?
DD: The Romanzo means means mixed. Mixed novel but mezzo is a is a term in Italy is used to, to to to say a mixture of culture. It can be racial ethnic. Mezzo is someone that is not pure. And it was a word that was kind of it is a bit even right now. It's not really kind of you have to be cautious when you use it. But it was it was used very much during fascist time trying to to prevent people to be medics. But it's also a war that has been told to me several times when I was when I was a kid. And so and so I think it was appropriate to to describe the current Italian situation and, the history of, of, of the Italian peninsula. I mean, is, is it's always been. A place where several cultures were kind of passing by and mixing together. So I think it was a provocative title that, that, that I think is, is is needed as much as California, because California was a was a was a term that was used to describe a geographical area. So the area bordered in between, uh, Italy and Slovenia. And it was created by the, the, the, the Venetian authorities when they conquer this, this part of Italy and, and it actually means the Venetians love land. Throughout history, Slovenia became a derogatory term. So now a person would appoint someone as Slav to kind of stress is inferiority, but the person they use it that word to insult the other person most of the time have an Italian surname. So his surname originally is from a Slavic roots. And so that an element of interest for me, because when you lose connection with your roots, with with the history of the place where you were born, you, you lose connection to who you actually are in terms of cultural heritage. And so you end up insulting someone for something that you that you have within your, within your, your persona, even though it is not you don't know it, it's still there. And so this the these two titles were a bit provocative, but sometimes, sometimes you need that to trigger some, some thoughts I guess.
SR: Can you describe what the Romanzo Meticcio project is? What does it look like and and what's the main sort of thread of that story?
DD: Yeah, sure. Romance. So basically is, is a continuation of slavery where I just extend the question, what does it mean to be Italian to, to the whole country? So again, as I mentioned before, I start from, uh, from my family background and then I moved through the studying of margins. So I try to to give and bring to the table another type of narration than, than the official one that has been given to us since the unification of the country. So I think for, for, for the first time, the margins are telling the story, the, the identity history of, of Italy, margins that I think now are constituting the core of Italian identity. Yet they have no voice, and they are most of the time not recognised as Italians and, and that as a, as a really several cultural. But if you want to say also in a bit more kind of, uh, capitalistic way as also, economical consequences for, for the country. So if you don't want to acknowledge certain elements because of. The right to be Italian, you should at least, uh, acknowledge the the the economical flows you you you have by doing so. So what? What are the pictures? What's the story? What can we see? I'm basically kind of questioning, uh, the entity to, to its core. And again, I'm doing that by exploring the margins and what is being marginalised throughout Italian history, meaning the people from the South, the second, third and now almost fourth generations of Italian cultural, linguistic minorities. And I do that by considering all these marginalised categories in their in their coexistence. So not one by one, but considering them in their overlapping within society. And I do this also using archival materials from, from the past, especially from the fascist time and how the fascist regime, uh, molded and transformed the, the, the what the Italian sees as Italian. So in the name of science. So I'm using that as, as a starting point and try to make, uh, to create a dialogue between. The past and the present. Okay, so I saw this work in Reggio Emilia when I was there last year, 2023. It was hanging in the Natural History Museum, I think, upstairs. Yeah. And there were pictures. It was really clever. And that's how we met, actually, because I was posting those pictures on Instagram because I thought that was so great. And you'd focused on an apartment block in that exhibition. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That apartment block is social housing. And it was the first apartment my grandfather got when he moved from from the south to the north. It was for him almost impossible to to find a house because there were literally banners saying we don't rent houses to Southerners. And so it was it was just just the only option he had. And the little box with the note, if you remember, with with the slide, with the slides inside, was a sort of invitation to step into what he was at the time unknown and to see what was inside. So was my family. So those were family pictures. And suddenly you see more things you can relate to than what someone else made you afraid of. And that was that is actually the starting point of the whole project. And then it carries on with, with the people that live nowadays in, in, in that in those type of apartments which are, which are Italian. And the society and the Italian government still struggle to, to, to recognise as such, we still have, I think, Italy and I don't remember I read the other day the other country, which I forgot, I think German, I don't remember which one is the only country in the world still that that gives citizenship through bloodline, which is quite absurd because if you are born from immigrant parents in, in, in Australia, I think you get the Australian passport if you are born in Australia, in Italy, if you're born from immigrant parents, you don't you don't get the citizenship, you don't get the passport. You just have a permit that you have to renovate until you are 18, and then you need to start at the age of 16, 17. The process for getting citizenship, which means you are not fully recognised by your birthplace and is absurd because you you are born in a place and even though you have cultural backgrounds, that's what I really believe that you have cultural backgrounds. So these these, they form you as a persona. But what creates you as a person, you want it or not, is the place where you are born and raised because you, you, you, you pick the accent, you pick the habits you pick, and you mix all of this with the cultural background of, of, for instance, your parents. And so in Italy, until you are a teen, you are not recognised as Italian. And what does that mean? It means that, for instance, when you go, you cannot go on a school trip if the if the school trip is abroad. So you have to stay at home. You cannot go. Or if if the school trip is in Italy. When it comes to show your ID, you need to go on a separate line because you don't have an actual Italian ID, but you have a permit. So there is different type of controls that of course, if one is not your your problem, you think, okay, but it's just you mean it's just it's not that they do something to you. You just have to go on a different line and and ensure that. And then you go back with your classmates. But we underestimate these little elements in someone else's life. They can create doubts. They can create a sort of uneasiness to be, to to do that, to always need to reply while you do that because your, your friends, they see you as you know, you grew up with them. So you, they see you as, as local as they can be. But then you have every time to justify the reason why you are there. And, and, and I find it quite, quite absurd. This the concept of of being Italian through bloodline is really much fascist in terms of belief. What is the base of our society right now? And I think it's quite also scaring that politicians don't see it as really kind of almost from both sides. I have to say, they don't see it as a real important element to change in our country. And so yeah, the project is, is about that, about the issues we have, but it's not pointing finger to a specific political group or, or something of this nature is actually pointing fingers to ourselves. To our education system. So the images are mainly showing how people live. You see a lot of, uh, elements that are common to us, but you see also elements that are foreign to you. For me, certain elements are familiar and familiar because I photograph some Colombian descendants or what I saw at home in terms of food and everything is quite familiar. Uh, but it becomes unfamiliar when I photograph some, some Albanian descendant or some, uh, Bosnian descendant or African descendants. Yet there is a lot of familiarity in the rest of it. So, so is this game of, of, of, uh, presenting, uh, two different elements that coexist, uh, in the same household and, and together with, with elements from the past. So I've been gathering a lot of articles from magazines that were published during, uh, the 30s and 40s that, for instance, my grandfather perhaps had, uh, subscribed to. So it's what you were reading daily in. And there are quite shocking, uh, magazines like literally shocking and, and, and and that is the education my grandparents had. Then I, I also found schoolbooks, school notebooks. So it's what the kids were, were, were studying and learning in school in the 30s. And that also is quite shocking. But it's also important to see that more than pointing fingers, to understand the reason why we are as a society right now, because is that is that is that is the point. And so by by kind of connecting the two dots, you should try to be able to to raise questions and find a solution for, for, for the present and future generations.
SR: I guess essentially the way of life in, in a, you know, ethnically diverse family in Italy would still have an underlying Italian way of living compared with in Australia. It would be an underlying Australian way of living. But essentially, I'm just thinking if you did that project in another place, how many parallels would you find? I mean, what is it? Is this a universal story? Is, I guess is the question I'm asking.
DD: Absolutely. I think is a universal story. And then there is the country within. You do it as a different degree of awareness of that. That's that that can be that can be it in, for instance, in Europe, England, France, Portugal. Devin awareness of their colonial past really, really much there. Uh, and, and there's been studying studies about that now like, since the 60s. 70s the awareness that Italy has about its colonial past is, is almost to zero. You know, the the, the the idea is still that we had it only for five years and we are and we were not that bad compared to the others. So, so but the the colonies in Africa, which is not true, is almost 100 years, if you think about it, because it's 18, 1885 or 1886 to 1941, it's not really five years. It's not 300 years like the others is not it's not for economical reasons that you didn't make your fortune out of out of that. But it doesn't mean that it's less important. Actually, you did it because of ideology, which is perhaps more dangerous than for economical reasons. And so and so that I would see the difference between Italy and the rest, because Italy is also, a country of emigrants, and it's really rare to see in a society like colonise a society of emigrants usually who colonise is not it's not it's not a society of people like where they're all citizens. Citizens are emigrating somewhere else. And so this is also the particular case of Italy compared to the rest, European cities. And so that is I think the difference but in general terms I think is, is universal story that, that, that all countries in Europe and, and not are facing. Yeah. Yeah. No absolutely I think that.
SR: Okay, so you've made a project about where you've grown up. Are you considering making something around Sicily and where you where you were born?
DD: Yeah, yeah, I think that is my it will be my next, my next step. Yeah, I, I did, I did Slovenia where I grew up romancing my teacher, which is my next work and is coming out right now as a photo book. I mean, soon, I guess in September that that kind of expands my research, to the whole country. And now I want to narrow it down again to, to Sicily. I have several ideas. I don't know which one to explore. First, to me is really interesting for the legend of, uh, the Tesla model or the Black Madonna as, worship or or Los Barroso, which was a was a Lambrusco was a researcher. The theory is the inborn ability to be a criminal for people from the South. So he made a scientific research, according to him, where he was stating that people from the South, they had some features that in their DNA that that were kind of leading them to be a criminal. And he classified, according to a certain ethnographic research, each type of criminal from each, uh, from different parts from the south. So from, from, from instance, the, the Sicilian would be a thief. Uh, and another person from, from Naples would be, would be a murder as well. So he, he created this kind of classification through ethnographic studies. And so I have these 3 or 4 key elements to start, to start a new research in Sicily. Yeah. I feel it as, as the, the kind of natural way to, to, to carry on my, my studies.
SR: Okay. That's probably a really good point to end, I think, because I'm about to step outside my knowledge.
DD: Okay. Well, even my even mind I'm, I'm still I'm still researching. So I've thrown on the table everything I know.
SR: Thank you so much, David. It was really, really interesting. And it was a lovely sort of neat thread from the beginning of your interest to to now. So I really appreciate you being so generous and sharing your research with us.
DD: Thanks to you for for having for having me. Thanks so much.
SR: That's great. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the seventh episode of Art destinations Venice. In our final episode of the Venice season, we will be in conversation with gastronomer Lorenzo De Pru, who forages for sea fennel seeds and other native salt loving plants on the island shores and the Venetian lagoon. He wants to innovate our approach to food in order to adapt to the changing climate. Lorenzo explains how tradition is a risk to diversity and the evolution of culture. Please sign up to our fortnightly newsletter follow Art destinations Podcast on Instagram to see examples of the work featured in our conversations, and follow us on your podcast hosting platform. I'm your host, Sarah Rhodes. Ciao for now.
